auctions |  biography | message boards | faq | links | bibliography | multimedia | exclusives | gifts | home |
Hemingway Travel Stickers
 


got Papa? shirts, mugs and more!
Custom Euro Oval Stickers
Oval Stickers and Euro Stickers


      
  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
General Questions (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 Ernest Hemingway Message Boards : General Questions
Subject Topic: This web (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
hijo
Leader
Leader
Avatar


Joined: 14†August†2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 547
Posted: 16†November†2005 at 10:23am | IP Logged  

J: a quick add while I'm at it.

As I recall (JPS can I'm sure shed some light, if he logs on) some double-barrels, and single-barrel shotguns are made to have a "hair-trigger." This means the trigger is essentially set to go off with the slightest touch. This is great if you've got tremendous self-control and want to use a modicum of energy and noise in trying to down something, say, from a hiding position, but it is best not to have the hair-triggers set if you're planning on walking any distance, because everything from dropping the weapon to bumping it against something to breathing too heavily can set it off.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, EH had such a hair-trigger on his weapon that morning. Let's assume for the same reasons all his weapons were always loaded. Let's next assume he was somehow impaired - drunk, drugged, tired, psychotic, depressed, whatever - and grabbed a hair-trigger, loaded weapon out of the cabinet and was walking with it and remembered it had jammed at some point and needed to be fixed.

If he had in fact headed for moving propeller blades earlier, and tried other ways to get his weapons (resulting in his returning to the Mayo), he got his wish even if it was an accident. Such an accident would need a fair number of pre-set variables (as described) to work. Bringing us back to your suggestion - he never intended to kill himself. But somebody had to know he'd tried in the past, or been made to appear to try, and the explanation would be more plausible.

Personally, I read Mary's version, and that of Lillian Ross, as either a) denial or b) people who knew something but were unwilling to say what they knew or how they knew it.

A person familiar with weapons would have to be pretty impaired, or unconcerned, to have a weapon go off and kill them "accidentally."

We once had a kid in school who was out for a while and returned having "shot himself while cleaning a rifle." This is one of the oldest euphamisms known to journalists for attempted suicide, right up there with the modern descriptions of "swallowed his gun" or "smelled his hibachi." The only thing left out was "after a long illness," which was used for everything from cancer to dementia.

Best,
T
Back to Top View hijo's Profile Search for other posts by hijo
 
HEMINGWAY
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 22†September†2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11
Posted: 18†November†2005 at 12:58am | IP Logged  

How accidents happen; you walk into your 2 year olds room, in the dark, to check on him, you step on a toy and go for a loop.(Youíve walked that walk a hundred times before, but now you have a broken neck)

Youíre driving down the freeway, going 70, on your way to work, someone beside you clips your bumper and you end up flying through the air and coming down into on coming traffic. (Youíve driven that route a thousand times before, but now youíre paralyzed)

You wind up in the hospital for reasons too many to mention,; when finally you get home you discover that your boys have had a party at your house and your guns are all misplaced. You go about straightening out your house and everything in it and discover that one of your guns is loaded and jammed. That night, you canít sleep, like so many nights before, and youíre angry at the world and disturbed at your kidS for leaving everything in the house a mess. You go down stairs, pull the gun out knowing itís loaded and go down to the river to work on it. Youíre in your bed cloths when you do everything you can to discharge the firearm and hope if it goes off it doesnít wake the neighbors. Nothing works. Not even slamming the butt of the rifle against the ground. Youíre tired, when the neighbors Labrador retriever comes running over. You just want to go back to bed and dog is all over you. You try to be nice, but all she wants to do is play. So you throw a rock as far as you can into the river and walk back up to the house. When you get to the house you can barely stand. You walk into the foyer and drop into the bench seat next to the gun rack. The next thing you know the dog is sprinting over to you with the rock you through into the river centered in her mouth when she leaps up on you. (The gun goes off and youíre DEAD!!!!) And everyone, and their grandmother is calling you the biggest loser that ever lived for being a quitter.

How would that make you feel?


sh*t HAPPENS!!

Joe



__________________
MAKE THINGS HAPPEN!
Back to Top View HEMINGWAY's Profile Search for other posts by HEMINGWAY Visit HEMINGWAY's Homepage
 
hijo
Leader
Leader
Avatar

Joined: 14†August†2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 547
Posted: 18†November†2005 at 10:58pm | IP Logged  

Joe: first, let me say for the record that is a very interesting theory. Second, I agree with you nearly 100% that "sh*t happens," so much so I once thought of a series of short stories - which perhaps you'll write before I do - of just such incidents: a man accidentally cuts himself while shaving alone with a straight razor, and comes to the realization slowly as blood is pouring out of his brain and juglar that he has royally f----ed up.

But there is a science, a logic to both crime scenes and accident scenes. How do I have any idea? I've seen enough of them that on really quiet nights alone, say camping, they come back to me and I wait for sunrise to try and sleep. A few years back they came back in a flood I wasn't able to stop, and everything I thought I was tough and strong and brave about turned me so inside-out I couldn't ride in a car for the feeling of certain knowledge I'd be in an accident and the worst thing would be I wouldn't be the person killed, but someone I loved would be.

How would you feel if an accident took your life and everyone said you were a quitter? You wouldn't. You'd be dead. Not a thought, not a spark, not a smidgen of electricity in your now useless hunk of gray-matter.

Could such an accident perhaps happen? Of course it could, to a degree, in that your scenario has admittedly plausible aspects. But that brings us back to the science of crime scenes and accident scenes. Even pre-DNA analysis days, investigators I dealt with taught me "sometimes, the scene cries out who did it." Then again, people who know that can be so careful they wind up implicating themselves by their lack of involvement.

Classic example was a family murder I covered as one of my last as a police reporter in Texas. Enough blood on the scene you had to be careful walking around not to a) slip and b) mess up the crime scene, which was still being photographed when I arrived. The ME had already taken out the bodies, so all I was given was a tour of the mess. Here's where the first body, a 3-year-old boy, was found. Here's where the second body, a few feet further in, a 5-year-old boy, was found. In here, to the left - careful where you're stepping, we're not done - is where the wife and mother was found, in the bathtub.
So much blood. Like someone spilled cans of red paint, the thickness of a first spill from a paint can.

Husband came home and found his family this way. He called 911. Said he saw his youngest on the floor, first, picked him up and held him, crying. Spotted the eldest on the way to the bathroom. Did the same. Found his wife in the tub next. Same. Where was he now? Out front, on the stoop, hands rubbing his head back and forth, back and forth along his bald spot among curly black hair. No blood on him. Not on his hands. Not on his clothes. Not in his hair. Not on the soles of his shoes. Family had been bludgeoned with a hammer. Just like the one found in his garage.

This is the stuff you said you wanted to hear from me?
Anyway. As far as anyone has ever indicated, and the part many people seem to have trouble accepting, is that the forensics of the Hemingway scene pointed clearly to suicide, committed by someone who had not only apparently attempted it before, but discussed it and even demonstrated how he planned to do it for years.

Was it assisted, or encouraged, making someone else ultimately legally responsible for it? Mary did leave the keys where they'd be found. Or she forgot they were accessible. Both she and EH were known to drink heavily, and argue visciously. You cannot drive someone insane. But you can push someone who is suffering a severe illness into trying to end their suffering for good, swiftly. EH had a host of health problems, mental illness - that's what bipolar disorder is classified as, ultimately - being just one of them.

Die young and leave a good looking corpse is what Bix Biderbeck's generation believed. It's also what happened to more than a million of them, in the trenches and the No Man's Land in just four years of warfare. I'm guessing not many who'd survived had a clue what to do with growing old. And then came the Great Depression. And Spain. And the Nazis. And World War II and Japan and China. Then Korea, and McCarthy, and Indochina (what we called Vietnam at the time, because it had been a French colony under that name until Ho Chi Min kicked the Japanese out). Then the plane accidents in Africa, Adriana, Debba, Jane Mason, Ava Gardner, Slim Hawkins, Sara Murphy, whomever. Then Fidel gets rid of Batista the Bastard. And Hoover starts planning to call you a traitor for living in Communist Cuba, which by the way your country is planning to invade - something of course, having worked with clandestine groups before you have no clue about. And Castro's mob seems a bit suspcious of you as well. Time to move? Yes. And quickly. But you know you'll not be going back to the place you've lived most of your life.

And in April of that year, your worst fears come true. U.S. troops, who you ate with, slept with, talked of dreams with, barely breathed with in the Hurtgen, and Cubans, wiped out on a beach because the whole thing was a stupid idea to begin with. And nobody knows or cares where your loyalty lies, because it lied with the sand the blood was spilled upon. The country. Like this country. Good land. Plenty of game and fruit and spaces and sights and smells and people.

A quitter? My guess anyone who really knew him, really knew him, couldn't believe he'd been able to put up with what was wrong with the world so long. How long would he have lived, I wonder, without the gun going off? How long before his liver, described looking like a leach bulging out of his side, quit completely? How long can you live without a liver, Joe? I'll tell you. A friend of mine almost died last Christmas if he hadn't received a transplant. From a bug he'd picked up earlier the same year, doing his job.

So, maybe it was an accident after all. If that helps you in some way, then let's say that. My guess is it was a last, deliberate act by someone who knew full well what they were doing, and probably had planned on doing it in just that way just that time he had the opportunity.

But ultimately, as always, I go back to the only Latin I ever really learned in school: Qui Bono? Who benefits? It's the two words I spent a career trying to resolve.

Best,
hijo

Back to Top View hijo's Profile Search for other posts by hijo
 
rob on the job
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 09†September†2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33
Posted: 21†November†2005 at 3:24pm | IP Logged  

Hemingway just sent me a vile, nasty private message that told me not to post on any threads he starts unless he invites me.

I told him, basically, to go to hell.

A guy like Hemingway will ruin this forum if he is allowed to bully and threaten.

Here is Hemingway's charming PM:

Bobby, when you finally move out of your mothers house and if and when she stops wiping your behind, then and only then can you comment on anything I do or write.

Now, be a nice boy and go away, PLEASE! and keep your third world comments to yourself.

Joe


Edited by rob on the job on 21†November†2005 at 3:27pm
Back to Top View rob on the job's Profile Search for other posts by rob on the job
 
Mike Galvin
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 29†August†2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1441
Posted: 21†November†2005 at 4:22pm | IP Logged  

rob,

The matter is being looked into. We'll get back to you.

Mike
Back to Top View Mike Galvin's Profile Search for other posts by Mike Galvin
 
Leo 168
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 01†September†2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 36
Posted: 21†November†2005 at 7:42pm | IP Logged  

re: "How would that make you feel?"

Joe, you once denied that you were entertaining the idea that you were Ernest Hemingway in your previous lifetime, but everything you say here seems to point in that direction. You seem to be suggesting that you have some personal, inside information for us 'little chickens'. What gives?

  If you have gone down that road, the only cure or catharsis for that kind of delusion is reality. For your sake, I do hope I'm wrong. If you think EH's ghost is flitting around the lighthouse at Key West and have empathy for him, then read about the hell he went through before his suicide. Personally, I don't think it was a cowardly act considering what he was going through. Do you think his death was an accident because you consider his suicide cowardly?

Leo 168

Back to Top View Leo 168's Profile Search for other posts by Leo 168
 
HemingwayCenter
Site Admin/Editor
Site Admin/Editor


Joined: 01†October†2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 490
Posted: 22†November†2005 at 1:03pm | IP Logged  

Thanks for the information Rob, I'm now locking this thread and working on the larger issue.  I'll keep you posted.    


Edited by HemingwayCenter on 22†November†2005 at 1:07pm


__________________
Mark Wilson
Site Editor/Administrator
Hemingway Resource Center
http://www.lostgeneration.com
http://www.ehemingway.com
http://www.stickercafe.com
Back to Top View HemingwayCenter's Profile Search for other posts by HemingwayCenter
 

Sorry, you can NOT post a reply.
This forum has been locked by a forum administrator.

<< Prev Page of 2
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version 7.92
Copyright ©2001-2004 Web Wiz Guide





biography | message boards | faq | links | bibliography | multimedia | exclusives | gifts | home

All pages copyright 1996-2017 The Hemingway Resource Center & www.lostgeneration.com
A MouseClickMedia.com, LLC Website
 

Custom Euro Oval Stickers
Oval Stickers and Euro Stickers