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The Sun Also Rises (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 Ernest Hemingway Message Boards : The Sun Also Rises
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Paul Hammersten
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Posted: 18 November 2006 at 5:11pm | IP Logged Quote Paul Hammersten

I have always believed a right understanding of the drink Jake { Jacob }  and Brett { ASHley  } share...with the olive..." on the wood " is necessary to fully understand what Hemingway tried to portray with his story.

Jesus and Jacob

Jacob Wrestling with the Angel - Gustave Doré 1855

Does anyone have any thoughts on a possible connection between Jacob’s wrestling with God in Genesis 32 and the events surrounding the crucifixion? The following are some tentative suggestions. Jesus and His Father wrestle in the darkness of Good Friday before God finally reveals His face to His Son (Psalm 22:24). It is in the event of wrestling with His Father that Jesus attains to true maturity (Hebrews 5:7-9), as Jacob does through wrestling with God. Through the success of His wrestling with God Jesus inherits a new name, the name that is above every name (Philippians 2:8-11), much as Jacob becomes Israel. Jesus dies as Israel, a prince with God, the King of the Jews, and rises as the One whose name is above all other names. Prior to the wrestling, both Jacob and Jesus encounter angels (Genesis 32:1-2; Luke 22:43). Following the wrestling both Jesus and Jacob are reconciled with their brothers (Genesis 33; John 20:17).

Jacob’s story fits into the pattern, already seen in the Abraham story of encounters with God as friend (at Bethel in Genesis 28 in the case of Jacob) followed by an encounter with God as ‘enemy’ (with the command to kill Isaac in the case of Abraham). We see a similar pattern in the story of Jesus: in His Baptism and the transfiguration, God’s favourable presence is manifested to Jesus; at Calvary the heavens are darkened and Jesus cries out in dereliction. Jacob receives a leg wound in his wrestling with God; Jesus receives wounds in His hands, feet and side and His heel is bruised (cf. Genesis 3:15).

In both accounts the activity of the sun is significant. In the Jacob story the sun set as Jacob left in chapter 28. It is next mentioned as it rises on him after he has finished wrestling with God in chapter 32. The sun is darkened over Jesus on the cross (Mark 15:33). However, the sun rises at the resurrection (Mark 16:2). As in the case of the story of Jacob, the whole interim period is symbolically one of darkness.

If we can speak of Jesus’ experience as one of wrestling and prevailing with God like Jacob, we can also regard Jacob’s experience of one of death and resurrection like Jesus. The darkness to light movement lends support to this, as does the fact that Jacob’s wrestling with God leads to his attaining to new maturity. Jacob is also given the name — Israel — that will mark him out as a father of God’s people, much as Jesus is marked out as the head of the new family of God’s people by the name that He inherits. After his death-resurrection experience, Jacob soon moves from centre stage in the narrative. This happens in the case of Abraham following his encounter with God as enemy in Genesis 22. It also happens following Jesus’ resurrection; the Church takes the centre stage following the resurrection. [Interestingly, it also happens in the case of Peter in Acts 12 where — this is undoubtedly significant — Peter is struck by an angel who then ‘raises him up’ (Acts 12:7). Following this event Peter no longer occupies the centre stage that he had occupied to that point.]

It would be interesting if a parallel between Jacob and Jesus could be sustained at this point. It would give strength to the thesis that Jesus is presented as the founder of a (re)new(ed) Israel. It would also present us with a different narrative approach to help us to understand the cross, an avenue of interpretation that may not yet have been explored. I am strongly of the opinion that typology has much to teach us about the meaning of the atonement if we would only listen carefully to it. Of course, this demands that we focus on the fine details of the gospel narratives of the cross............

I didn't write the above but have  typed Hemingway/Hemingway's characters and Jacob in my book ASANTE PAPA!

Remember it was at Jacob's Well Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman...

Best

Paul



Edited by Paul Hammersten on 19 November 2006 at 9:25am


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Posted: 18 November 2006 at 10:01pm | IP Logged Quote hijo

Paul: excellent possibility.

Jacob (Jake) wrestles with God, suffers, and is redeemed (made new).

The Lost Generation wrestles with God, suffers (is brought low) and at least Jake, and maybe Brett, is redeemed.

In Mithra, or the bullfighting extension of it, the battle with the bull is necessary, as is the spilling of its blood, to keep the world moving (renew creation, etc).

In Gilgamesh, the hero (Gilgamesh) challenges powers and winds up with a bull's head (older than Christianity, and Mithra (as far as anyone knows)).

Is, then, bullfighting's mythology (which has Mithra at its heart but Christianity, and particularly the very Spanish-Catholic "Cult of Mary", closer to its surface) and symbolism wrapped up, deftly woven throughout the novel?

And, secondarily, was Hemingway consciously imbuing his novel with these symbols, or was it pouring out of him subconsciously (a la Gurdgieff, Carl Jung, etc.) And of course, lastly, for you (your perspective), if it was "subconscious," it had to be grace, no? Making the most of his "gift"?

Best,
hijo
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Paul Hammersten
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Posted: 19 November 2006 at 9:19am | IP Logged Quote Paul Hammersten

Hijo

Reading your reply gives me shivers.

I believe Hemingway consciously wrote all he did, trusting his ' subconscious ', while maybe not fully understanding at the time he wrote what he did all he knew he must write.

The other night on TV I watched for the first time  AMERICAN MASTERS " Ernest Hemingway: Rivers To The Sea. One comment was made I need to address - as if it was a fault, it was mentioned Hemingway couldn't cut things out. But right in the same breath it was said he wrote this way towards the end because all! he wrote was important to him!

And it ALL should be important to us.

This is why I am still waiting for an unedited publications of Papa's ' Africa Book '. We now have ' True At First Light ', ' Under Kilimanjaro ', and maybe someday Hemingway's ' Africa Book '.

Thank you for your help...will get back to this thread later.

Best

Paul

 



Edited by Paul Hammersten on 19 November 2006 at 9:21am


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Posted: 21 November 2006 at 12:28am | IP Logged Quote hijo

Paul et al:

As we approach the very American holiday of Thanksgiving, let me suggest to you, Paul the following:

Writing in its purest form, at least for me, involves a trance-like state, in which the writer is almost a recorder of visions, of events, of actions, just as one watching event unfold through the lense of a camera, or ones own eyes (with a journalistic distance).

Tibetan oracles, particularly of the Yellow Hat sect, place themselves into a trance to be "receptive" to their visions.

Jung and Gurdjieff propose dream-state versus "real" states of consciousness, often with a "shock" of some sort bringing reality into focus with illusion being swept away.

Hemingway was considered a "realistic" writer - able to sweep away some of the illusions, the romanticism of the past.

"Everything is vanity," according to Ecclesiastes. "All things are Maya (illusion)," according to the Upanishads and a few other texts of other religions.

Perhaps to cut through illusions, one has to be in a trance-like state, in which one is able to "see" - either in vision or at the very least a subconscious impulse - "reality."

And then, there is what is called "automatic writing."

All of which was wiped out with however many joules to the gray matter. The problem with reality is, once you've seen it, it's really, really hard to go back to illusion, the "dream-state" most people refer to as "real life."

I submit that EH wrote nearly "automatically," in a trance-like state, open to either impulses of his subconscious, or ... other influences?

Take, for instance, the passage in "A Moveable Feast," in which he suggests "hunger was good for writing." Hunger is also a pre-requisite of the Sioux ritual called a "vision quest" - the purpose of which is to attain a state in which a vision occurs to the participant in the form of a name and spirit guide, and a few other things.

What did Hemingway learn about these things, and how, and where, and when?

As for the original part of this thread - I'm thinking you're getting some ideas for your essay?

Best,
hijo

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Paul Hammersten
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Posted: 21 November 2006 at 9:59am | IP Logged Quote Paul Hammersten

Hijo

There are very exciting questions and insights to be given attention to in your last post.

It will be fun to ' look ' into them when we are in Florida over Thanksgiving.

You wrote, " Hunger is also a pre-requisite of the Sioux ritual called a "vision quest" - the purpose of which is to attain a state in which a vision occurs to the participant in the form of a name and spirit guide, and a few other things. "

As far as I have been able to learn, Hemingway did not drink [ for several reason ] before, while , or after writing during the time he wrote his AFRICA BOOK. This was not his pattern.

This is one reason I believed he reached what he referred to as ' the fifth dimension ' with this book.

Well...this will have to wait until I get some fire hydrants winterized and some wayer wells monitored.

Cape Cod

Best

Paul


 

 



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Posted: 21 November 2006 at 6:15pm | IP Logged Quote Paul Hammersten

The fire hydrants are all winterized and the wells are read.

I'm packing along my tattered old paperback copy of ISLANDS IN THE STREAM. It is fun to see what passages struck my fancy when the book was first read during a past trip to Florida.

Here is one Terin that probably sums up what we should probably do with discussion.  " ' Let's leave it alone,Eddy,' Thomas Hudson said, ' It's was past things we know about.' "

Here is another that begins with " The rollers are rolling in their church up on the ridge and all speaking in unknown tongues... " [ page 19 ] Now there is the counterfeit but that only proves there is the genuine [  some of the church people  the devils could only ' try ' to fork in...breaking their pitch forks in the process ] " being in the Spirit ". And this is what we are talking about and this is how and what Hemingway writes about.

For Hemingway Chapter XIII of the First Epistle to the Corinthians is the beginning and the end. Just as Gurdjieff and Ouspensky conclude in TERTIUM ORGANUM.

" Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...................................................... ............................................................ ........

............................................................ .........................................................

............................................................ ..............."

Cape Cod

Best

Paul



Edited by Paul Hammersten on 22 November 2006 at 9:36am


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Posted: 24 November 2006 at 8:20pm | IP Logged Quote hijo

"Grace under pressure" describes "Temple," the way the bullfighter is supposed to approach the bull...

"All that is known, and unknown..."

One of my favorite "companion" books to TSAR has always been "A Razor's Edge," by W. Somerset Maugham, because, rather than quoting Ecclesiastes, it quotes the Upanishads - Asian/Oriental "mysticism" being quite in vogue at the time - suggesting how difficult it is to be a "pious"/holy/true and honest person yet living in the world...

Allbest,
and glad you got the hydrants and wells ready,
hijo
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