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 Ernest Hemingway Message Boards : The Sun Also Rises
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maudeg
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 9:45pm | IP Logged Quote maudeg

brilliant.

and no, i'm not brown-nosing.

i must admit, however, that i did not see that (the whole creation of the next generation thing) by myself... i got that from my old english teacher to whom i spoke with today. i had to pass that on though, 'cause i hadn't seen it and i hadn't read it elsewhere (neither on this message board nor on sparknotes, etc). which is the point.



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Peter Krynicki
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 11:01am | IP Logged Quote Peter Krynicki

Someone wrote

>Personally I think the irony of his situation is that he might as well be Brett's >gay friend." Early in the novel when Brett entered the cafe with a throng of >flamboyant (possibly gay?) youths, Jake expressed true disdain for them. Brett >said she could get drunk safely around them because they would not take >advantage of her sexually. According to her logic, she could then get drunk >around Jake safely because he would not take advantage of her sexually >whether he wanted to or not. Jake is her pillar for emotional strength. This is >more or less the case for a woman and her "gay friend."

The irony, parallel irony, is that Jake enters the Bal musette with a hired prostitute, someone he cannot "use," and Brett enters with a group of gay men, people who cannot "use" her. This situation is enhanced, if you will, by Jake introducing his date as LaBlanc, a real person whose identity helps to understand what hemingway is doing with this scene.

 

Pjk     



 

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Peter Krynicki
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 2:13pm | IP Logged Quote Peter Krynicki

[I didn't think I could find this so quickly...]

"Reynolds also unfolds several insider jokes. Ford, for instance, in the person of Braddocks, cannot recognize a prostitute (Georgette Hobin) when he meets one. Georgette Leblanc-the 'fictional' name attributed to the prostitute by Jake when he introduces the woman as his fiancee (SAR 25-26)-was the name of Margaret Anderson's lesbian lover, a singer for whom Anderson left Jane Heap. "Left Bank readers," Reynolds writes, 11 recognized the bal musette in rue de la Montagne Sainte Genevieve as a homosexual bar.... [R]eaders in the Quarter would recognize [Brett's companions at the bar as] Arthur Lett-Haines and his lover, Cedric Morris the painter, Ernest's neighbors on Notre-Dame-des-Champs" (Paris 310-11). "

But why ios all of this sexual topsy-turvy going on?

Pjk

 

 

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Paul Hammersten
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Posted: 04 December 2005 at 9:56am | IP Logged Quote Paul Hammersten

" But why is this sexual topsy-turvy goinf on? "

So that the dawning of the Love Jake and Brett come to discover in themselves for each other might be recognized by the reader as special [ as  I have written before - miraculous! -"  the olive/ in the drink/ on the wood. ]

Best

Paul



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Mrs Weisgerber
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Posted: 04 December 2005 at 11:24am | IP Logged Quote Mrs Weisgerber

Okay, before much more posting goes on, I must interject (having
recently recovered from my faint, to awaken in a wintery dreamworld).

I cannot caution my curious scholars enough against sparknotes. I think
these might more accurately be called Spitnotes, because whatever
scintilla of a fascinating and original idea you might have can be quashed
and snuffed by its leading, and often anonymous and misleading,
commentary. Again, your own opinions can guide you, and when you are
comfortable with those, seek the opinions of the learned. English
essayist and critic John Ruskin said it beautifully: "The greatest thing a
human soul ever does in this world is to see something and tell what it
saw in a plain way. Hundreds of people can talk for one who can think,
but thousands can think for one who can see. To see clearly is poetry,
prophecy, and religion, all in one."

I think Hemingway was one who saw clearly, and it is a happy stylistic
tribute to him if we discuss him in our own plain and original thoughts.

I can appreciate the desire to learn more about a difficult subject and
taking a fast glance at a convenient, however corruptible, source such as
old sparkington.... It's not like I don't know the URL, for heaven's sake. I
got lonely beating my head against Joyce's Ulysses and I'm not afraid to
admit it. However, as a source sparknotes is not authoritative, credible,
current, etc. All the measures of quality that a scholar must demand are
not met by old sparky. All the good you can glean from literature is not
sifted into the online repository. For those of you who are my students,
expect to write a few original mini-cliff notes this week! Let's have some
fun with the notion. I'll explain. XO and LOL, Mrs. W.

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Peter Krynicki
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Posted: 05 December 2005 at 11:39am | IP Logged Quote Peter Krynicki

 But why is this sexual topsy-turvy goinf on? "

So that the dawning of the Love Jake and Brett come to discover in themselves for each other might be recognized by the reader as special [ as  I have written before - miraculous! -"  the olive/ in the drink/ on the wood. ]

 

"Love" is a pre-Great-War, Victorian idea that would require commitments from both people. The war has made such reliance on commitment no longer vialble. Love, marriage, the precepts of the chuch, even the laws of government ...all of these are no longer to be trusted because all have been negated by the war. Jake and Brett are no longer capable of loving each other, and Jake's wound is not the reason why. The reason why is the entire post-war environment. This is the major point of the novel, as it is with most post war novels. See Good-bye To All That  by Robert Graves.

 

Pjk

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Mrs Weisgerber
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Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:51am | IP Logged Quote Mrs Weisgerber

I respectfully disagree, not as a Hemingway afficionado but as a ponderer of Hemingway and student/teacher.  Love cannot be relegated to the Victorian dust bin.  It's a word that warring people, (our Anglo Saxon forebears in particular who gave us that word,) knew and used.  The timeline of love threads through all literature, through all philosophy (Plato's symposium as a mile marker), and through history too.  Even Lincoln, as did Alexander the Great, made a point of visiting the wounded soldier and listening to their battlefront tales.  Hemingway, in this novel, is creating for us a privilege of visiting with wounded soldiers.  We are able to visit with them, as the "solemn man" in Wilfred Owens's poem "Disabled" does, and enquire about their souls.  That's love. 

If we stop thinking about Brett and Jake's inability to have sex, but instead think of their inability to TAKE ACTION, as people of action are wont to do, we see their frustration.  But the love they have for each other is there, and they may be blase but they are not Victorian (although I'm not an expert on that either, are Victorians blase people?!)

People change, transform even; but love seems constant to me.  I was talking to my friend Doreski the other day, and he reminded me that Auden said people didn't just want to be loved, but to be the ONLY ONE loved.  Now that's needy, and that's modern. 

 



Edited by Mrs Weisgerber on 06 December 2005 at 12:05pm
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Peter Krynicki
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Posted: 06 December 2005 at 1:23pm | IP Logged Quote Peter Krynicki

Hemingway usually works in dualities. Cohn is the throw-back to a pre-war Victorian sensibility. He literally fights for Brett when he knocks both Romero and Jake down because of her. He demonstrates commitment in his relationship to Frances. Jake pretty much treats Brett in the same way as he treats "Georgette" Leblanc - even though he cannot love either, he pays for both of them. He even pimps for her when he introduces her to Prdro Romero.

 

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Mrs Weisgerber
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Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:05pm | IP Logged Quote Mrs Weisgerber

It works for the love argument just as well.   I think the poule and the pal (Brett) are two different ideas altogether.  Jake buys the prostitute a meal, but later hedges on paying for her company at the dance hall.  It seems to me that Pedro is a carefully considered surrogate for Jake: a gift to Lady Ashley.  Pedro meets code requirements for being a hero.  Plus, America has continued to adopt the romantic, okay Victorian too, notion of a hero that began with Goethe and is with us to this day (only we like ours to have guns); that is to say American heroes are passionate, strong-willed, brooding, and rebellious.  The Hemingway code hero... is described as "a man who lives correctly, following the ideals of honor, courage and endurance in a world that is sometimes chaotic, often stressful, and always painful."  Sounds like same old sturm und drang to me, but through a uniquely American point of view.  That reminds me, I have to go see the new Johnny Cash film.  A dios.

Regards, AW

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Paul Hammersten
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Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:28pm | IP Logged Quote Paul Hammersten

" People change, transform even; but love seems constant to me. "

Exactly...it is the same sun that rises with the dawn of each ' new ' day.

And as the writer in Bible says, " Jesus Christ is the same yesturday today tomorrow ". "

What other specificly Bible [ especially New Testement ] references did Hemingway use in his book besides the cross, the upper room. Adam's rib, names etc?

Someday I would like to get my own copy of Carmen Corral's THE TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE SUN ALSO RISES which reveals ' how Hemingway changed his manuscript to show the sense of peace Brett and Jake found along with the optimistic idea of progress of life's cycle. '

Best

Paul



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