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Nick P
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Posted: 27 November 2005 at 11:45pm | IP Logged Quote Nick P

 

Well I hate to do it, but this is going to be really repetitive (that’s an understatement).

 

             I think that Jake pays his way for pretty much every reason that has been mentioned here already. I think it is all of the compounded circumstances with witch Jake has to live. His physical disability causes him to compensate with money. Most people seem to agree with this.

   Secondly, he has emotional problems, the lack of a true companion, which makes him feel less manly, and he again must compensate by paying for everything.

    Finally, I think that Jake travels around so much that he does not want to build up a debt, real or imagined, with anyone. That way he is always on good terms with those he associates with.

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Lisa C
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Posted: 27 November 2005 at 11:57pm | IP Logged Quote Lisa C

One reason why Jake is always paying the tab is because money talks.  He feels that every cent he contributes will somehow help him out in the end.  As someone previously stated, who knows when he might need a friend and giving a person a little extra money will definitely help when trying to get on their good side.  I agree with everyone on the fact that Jake always picks up the tab because he wants to make a stand for himself and show that he’s capable of carrying his own weight.  Paying the tab is his way of making up for his unfortunate physical state and being on a somewhat equal level as his peers.  He is disgusted by the fact that Brett always needs someone there to look out for her and support her every step of the way, yet he’s always there when she needs him.  Some may call this a strong friendship but lets face it, how unbelievably sad.  He’s so whipped and needs to learn that in order to have a successful life he needs to move on from Brett and start his own life.  It’s clear that they’ll never be happy together because Brett is so materialistic and the one thing she wants he can’t give her so he should just give up.

 

Although Brett may have caused a lot of the trouble between the characters, she is the main reason that they stick together because at one time or another Jake, Cohn, and Mike have all had feelings for Brett. This common interest and their love of drinking and partying is why they are always together.  As to how well they really know each other is a different story.  It may seem that since Jake and Brett are so close and she confides in him all of her problems that they know each other pretty well.  Truthfully, I don’t really think that any of the characters understand what each other are about.  The main reason is because they act so fake and always seem to be putting on a show.  Their superficial lifestyles support this type of behavior and as a result no one I feel was truly able to act themselves.  One minute they’re telling each other how wonderful they are and the next they’re in a fight.   

 

Overall, I really don’t know what to think of the book.  All I know is that it could’ve been better.  It was just so confusing and random for me.  The plot, if there was one, was very difficult to follow.  I don’t know maybe that was just me, did anyone else feel the same way?

 

 what a wierd lookin smile

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LizE
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 12:02am | IP Logged Quote LizE

I believe Jake's injury is a symbol of war and what it does to those who fight in it. If you looked at Jake without actually knowing him you would probably assume he was physically and emotionally fine. His wound is impitency, and it prohibits Jake from being fully himself in society. The war took something from him just as it takes something from all of its soldiers either mentally or physically.
Oftentimes, when one who has never been in a war, thinks of war they equate soldiers to muscular, disciplined, 'manly' men. There's nothing quite so masquline, at least to the ignorant supposer, as shooting something. But for Jake war took away his masquilinity and much of his confidence. This is one way the author portrays war as something other than what we believe it to be.

Jake always insists on paying his own way because he is insecure about his masculinity and it makes him, in his own mind, more masculine. We see from early in the novel Jake’s disdain for ‘feminine’ men. He clearly dislikes the homosexual men who come to the dance club with Brett. Jake also suffered an injury during World War I which was crippling to him sexually and resulted in impotence. Though he says he hardly thinks of it, Jake tends not to say what he actually feels, as can be seen through his conversations with other characters vs. his reactions towards them. It is possible that Jake’s injury was more depressing to his emotional state than he let on. Perhaps because he could not perform sexually he had secret insecurities about his masculinity. Jake attempts to solve this insecurity by paying his own way.
It is a stereotype that men pay for themselves. If they take a woman on a date, they are the ones who pay for the meal. Jake may see paying for what he’s responsible for as a way to assert his masculinity to women, and to men for that matter, in a way that he could never do with a romantic relationship.

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chuckm
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 12:02am | IP Logged Quote chuckm

I would have to agree with Rob and Brian that Jake picks up the tabs and gives big tips in order to keep his friends, but he also does it so that the waiters, taxi-drivers, etc. will appreciate him. On page 237, Hemingway writes, "If you want people to like you you only have to spend a little money. I spent a little money and the waiter liked me. He appreciated my valuable qualities....It would be a sincere liking because it would have a sound basis." This shows that Jake likes to spend money because he feels he's getting an equal exchange of values and he enjoys getting his money's worth. I believe this pleases him so much because there have been many instances in his life where he has given up something and gotten nothing in return. His relationship with Brett is a great example. Also, his involvement in the war has not given him an equal exchange or reward for his time and effort; rather, he received an injury as retribution. (I find it funny how the use of money is very meaningful in Jake's opinion, yet most members of the Lost Generation moved to Europe to free themselves from the monetarily based culture that was forming in the U.S.) Anyhow, Jake's insistence on picking up the tab is spurred by experiences in his life where he paid in some way yet he received a far-from-equal transaction.

I doubt that the characters know each other very well: how can they know each other when they don't even know themselves? None of them really know what kind of life they're leading. They have no goals or aspirations because they can't even look a few days into the future. In my opinion, in order for one to get to know others, one has to know himself, and thats definitely not the case with the group from TSAR.

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Sindhu K
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 6:32am | IP Logged Quote Sindhu K


I think Jake picks up the tab for a few different reasons. Paying lots of money is his way to compensate for his problems. Jake, Mike, Cohn, and Pedro are constantly competing for Brett's attention. Paying for the tab seems to be Jake's way to get her to think he's rich, and perhaps woo Brett to like him more. I think it leaves him with a sense of pride, knowing he can pay for many things, while Mike, her fiance, who's bankrupt, has to constantly borrow money. Jake also uses money to make fake friendships with others. On page 237 Jake says, "If you want people to like you you only have to spend a little money. I spent a little money and the waiter liked me. He appreciated my valuable qualities." People always use money to manipulate others, usually for power, as we see in our world today with politics. Jake uses money to get others to like him. He really has no friends of his own, especially after staying loyal to Brett through her affairs.

The main characters of this novel have weak friendships with one another. Jake, who seemed to be fairly good friends with Cohn in the beginning of the novel completely thinks otherwise at the end of the novel. He becomes jealous and develops a hatred for him. Mike abhors Cohn and lashes out on him because he is having an affair with his fiance and because he is an outcast. Also there was a lack of communication amongst everyone. Jake knew that Cohn had an affair with Brett in San Sebastian long before Cohn openly admitted it, but he never confronted him about it. These characters of the Lost Generation, specifically Mike and Jake, had an especially hard time expressing their emotions. They kept everything bottled up inside, until they snapped and broke into fights. They turned to violence as a solution, just like how they turned to violence as a solution in the wars they fought in. I think that if the main characters had better friendships with each other, and valued their friendships, they probably could have worked their problems out.

If the novel were to continue, I think that Brett and Jake would still remain friends. He has been loyal to her thus far, through all the rough and heated times, so I don't see why they still wouldn't remain friends. Nothing of course would happen because of Jake's war injury and Brett's continual longing for sex.

Jake's injury seems to be both a result of the war and a symbol of the war. His injury has left him  unhappy, like the war has left veterans unhappy. Jake did not appreciate what he had until it was lost. Similarly veterans of wars do not appreciate the comfort and safety of their homes until they have to leave for war and risk their lives for their countries.

I wonder if Hemingway had not enlisted in the army and fought in the war for fear of ending up like the people of the Lost Generation.

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SagarB
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 8:56am | IP Logged Quote SagarB

Jake always picks up the tab for everything as a result of several things, in my opinion. the most obvious one being that he feels that in a way it somehow makes up for his lost manhood. like Mrs. Weisgerber said up there somewhere... he just keep paying for things cuz its not like hes goin to get his manhood back. another reason for his picking up the tab could be that its the only thing he can control in his life. he cant control his injury, he cant control he relationship with brett, he cant control anything but this in his life. and everyone has a natural need to control somehting. this is all he is left with so he embraces it at every oppurtunity he gets.

the ending of the book i think is an open and shut case. Jakes hopelessly in love with someone who neither deserves in nor wants it. a lot like Gatsby and Daisy. i feel that tehm saying godbye to each other at teh end actually mean that they are saying good bye and they wont randomly meet one day and revive and old love. because the truth is that Brett just isnt that type of person. Jake will probably always love her and hate her at the same time, not realizing that she doesnt deserve any sort of feelings from him. Brett on the other hand will probably forget about him the next day. Jakes injury is, in my opinion, just an excuse for her not to get involved in a relationship him.

The point is.... teh only thing that will happen to them after the end of the book is.... nothing(which is basically what happened teh entire length of the book) 

 

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PaulineB
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:03am | IP Logged Quote PaulineB

Jake pays for the tab because he does not want to be in debt, and he does not want to owe anyone. In the beginning of the novel, when Jake describes Cohn, Jake reveals that he is coming to terms with his masculinity. Jake does not want to seem like he can not afford his own sustenance. Independence was commonly associated with masculinity in the 1920’s.  In addition, Mike is bankrupt and is always borrowing and owing people money, in chapter 17 he needs to borrow from Edna (Hemingway 192). Jake feels that he will become like Mike Campbell if he does not pay his debts does not want to become like Mike. Jake loved Bret, and Mike is in love with Brett, this complicates the issue.



Edited by PaulineB on 28 November 2005 at 10:23am
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Sonal P
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 11:56am | IP Logged Quote Sonal P

I think that the characters of Hemingway's novel only know each other to a certain extent. There isn't much to know about Jake, Brett, Mike, Cohn, and Bill because they've all been dulled by the war, except for Cohn. Their personalities only go so far. They spend all of their time togther running around to different bars and hotels, getting drunk, and watching bullfights. HOwever, some of the characters have a few of the others figured out. For example, Mike, Jake, and Bill know that Brett is never fulfilled permanently by just one man, which is why Mike, her fiance, lets her run around with whomever she wants. Jake, her "love" understands that she can't be with him because of his war injury. Bill is the only one that doesn't get involved with Brett whatsoever, probably because he knows what kind of person she is. Also, they have Cohn figured to a certain point. They find him annoying and ignorant of the fact that Brett never had feelings for him. Jake knows Cohn best and he knows why he's so touchy and immature sometimes. Jake knew that Cohn was a Jew that never had much experience with love and life Everyone knows that Mike is bankrupt and doesn't have much to do. However, none of the characters really know Jake or Bill because they stay away from getting too involved. Mike and Cohn do not realize what went on between Brett and Jake and nobody really interacts much with Bill. In this novel, Jake and Bill are more like bystanders and observers of the action. I know that the characters do not personally get to know each other too well, but for the situation that they are in, we cannot really expect too much. It was more that they could have gotten to understand one another better, but it just did not matter at that point in life. They got to know each other as much as they possibly ever would. At least they survived their time together.

If the novel continued, Brett and Jake would end up exactly the same as they started. I agree with anyone who said that Brett would continue her affairs and fall back to Jake after each one. Brett would keeo saying that they could have so much fun together and that they would be perfect together but that she cannot be with him. Jake would keep comforting her because he'll still be trying to make up for his war injury. Their love story, or rather, Jake's love story, will end up unfulfilled, and he'll keep it all bottled up inside. He won't ever complain because Jake believes that it is his fault, and he cannot do anything to change it. I appreciate how understanding and patient he is though, but it never benefits him. They will all just continue life in a daze of mixed and numbed emotions.

                  Sonal

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lyzj
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 5:45pm | IP Logged Quote lyzj

I think that Jake always “paying his way” shows that Jake is the type of person that takes responsibility for what he has done, instead of leaving things behind him.  He probably feels that if things are his responsibility, he should take care of them.  Jake also probably does not want to make problems for himself nor have to bear the guilt of something left unfinished.  For example, Jake is the one who encouraged Brett to go with Romero.  Then, when Brett calls him to come to Hotel Montoya, he went because it was his responsibility of bringing it along.  I think that the characters know each other well because they were friends for a long time.  For example, Jake knows exactly how Cohn will act.  It is likely that when he goes off to talk with Brett, Cohn will follow them at a distance.  I think that they stay together because they know each other well and would not be used to new friends.  If this novel were to continue, I believe that sooner or later Brett will go back to Jake.  She will probably realize that she can not live her life running around with a different man all the time.

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lynnnjack
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Posted: 28 November 2005 at 8:11pm | IP Logged Quote lynnnjack

I do not think the characters know each other very well, but good enough to be able predict the behavior or reaction one of their friends might have. If the characters knew each other well, they would not let theirselves get angered by what their friends do because should except their behavior and deal with it. Since the characters only know their freunds good, they get angered by their friends behavior and do not try to stop their friends when they are doing wrong or help them do what is right.

 

The only thing that has kept them together is their habits and experiences. Their habits, as everyone knows, are drinking, partying, and hanging out. They all love to do these things together, and often.  Their experiences are the things they learned and saw in the war. These things kept them together, even though they might not always appreciate or want each other’s company. Cohn was the only one who was constantly pushed away. Cohn was not in the war, and did not have the same common similarities as the other characters in The Sun Also Rises.

 

As for a continuation of Brett and Jake, I doubt they will ever be more than friends. Brett wants what Jake cannot give her, and she knows Jake loves her, but she does not care. Brett has become a lustful strumpet after the war and only cares to satisfy herself, She will not change. Jake will still be on the side, watching his friends and vacationing. He will remain the quiet journalist living and contenting himself. Brett and Jake will only be friends, nothing more. I hope this novel does not ever continue.

 

Jake’s injury, though, is what will keep the situation between him and Brett the same. It is result of the war and a symbol of it. If there was no war, Jake would not have that injury. The war caused the injury. And as a symbol, the wound represents pain, loss, and change. War caused pain with loss of life, and like Jake’s case, body parts. War can also cause pain to the soldiers who watch their comrades die while they live. Sometimes, the soldiers might even have to watch their efforts go to waste when things go wrong and fail. War also causes loss. Loss of body pieces, loss of family, and loss of the life soldiers had before entering the war. Which leads to change. War is the major changor monster. With war things happen, and the people who survive the bloodshed are forever changed in their minds and perhaps their bodies. War puts heavy experiences on all who partake in it. Just like the characters in The Sun Also Rises, people’s lives come out different when the war is over. Jake’s post war life and his freunds’ post war lives control what they will do and become because of their part in the war.

 

 



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