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Mrs Weisgerber
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Posted: 23 November 2005 at 1:54pm | IP Logged Quote Mrs Weisgerber


What do you think about Jake's insistence on always paying his way,
getting the tab, paying for what he's responsible for?  Cite evidence,
please, from the novel to support your ideas on this.


Do the main characters of this novel, however carefully wrought, know
each other well?  What has kept them together?


If the novel were to continue, what would become of Brett and Jake, do
you suppose?


Is Jake's injury a result of the war, or a symbol of the war?


Finally, what do you want to know about Hemingway and this novel? This
is a great time to ask. (Don't forget to make sure your question is not
already taken care if in the FAQ section of this site.)

As a reminder: quality.

 



Edited by Mrs Weisgerber on 26 November 2005 at 2:08pm
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RTWilks
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Posted: 23 November 2005 at 5:59pm | IP Logged Quote RTWilks

    I feel that as a result from the war, his injury had severly hurt his manhood. He feels insecure, and to see as equal with the rest of his group he pays. Although this does little emotionally to help him get past this injury, he can use this façade to mask his true feelings, as though only others who see his actions matter to him.
on page 19, “You can’t get away from yourself by moving from one place to another.”
    Jake states to cohn, Jake admits that going from bar to bar does not get you anywhere. He's almost paying to be out in society, paying a debt he can never repay fully.

    As the main characters go through the novel, its tough to say whether they know each other that well, yes they do spend time with each other and yes they know all of the little details about each other, but one person is just as phony as the rest. Jake uses a façade by paying the tab, each one seems to be masking their feelings with pointless drinking, time and time again. The war has kept them together, through that strong connection they spend so much time together, through the drinking, the tears, they stay close.
   
    Jake would never get far with Brett, although his love is strong he cannot get over his injury nor can Brett. They will continue to be close friends as Brett will never love him as she is incapable of loving anyone and Jake will not leave her as he cannot get the will power to rid her of his life.
   
    I believe jake's injury is a symbol of the war, post dramatic shock so to speak. It shows that some people cannot get over some events that occur while in war. His is emotionally scared from the war, his "injury" just shows this in a tangible way.


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Alex P
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Posted: 23 November 2005 at 11:04pm | IP Logged Quote Alex P

I believe that Jake always tries and pay for himself because he does not want to feel indebted to any of his friends and tries to distance himself from  COhn , who always follows Brett around, even to San Sebastian, and  Mike, a drunkard  often prone to drunken tantrums. The fact that bull fighters and "afinciados" treat Jake as one of their own but the "afinciados" tend to look down upon Brett, Cohn and Mike, especially Brett when she and Jake sit down next to Romero at the cafe. They feel that Brett is influencing Romero with her foreign ways, similar to the American Ambassador who tried to invite Romero to dinner.
     Many bullfighterss, "afinciados" and Montoya recognize Jake as one of their own is symbolic of the fact that Jake is trying to distance himself from his friends, he tries to be different.

     The characters in TSAR do not give the impression of knowing each other well. They simply seem to be "drinking buddies", wherever  Jake goes, Brett follows, followed by Mike and Cohn. I also got the impression that Cohn seems desperate for compainiship  that he will grab onto anyone, regardless of whether or not he knew or try to find out, anything about Cohn.  In page 198, Cohn says "You were the only friend I had and I loved Brett so". Mike doesn't seem much better off, a bankrupt drunkard and loudmouth. When you throw 3 down-on-their-luck people like them together, i doubt that they will take the time to try and learn about one another. It seems that the main thing holding the group together is their desperation for companionship, the need for a friend.

I'd agree with Ryan  in that Brett and Jake probably would not stay together as a result of his injury. However, i don't think that Mike and Cohn will stay together as a result of the fight they had in the fiesta. I imagine that it's pretty awkward between the two as Mike realized that Cohn would fight for Brett.

Jake's injury is both a result of war and a symbol of war. It was an injury for obvious reasons and the wound represents what war will do to a person, not only destroy them on the outside and render a person useless but will wreck the inside of a person, his personality and emotions.
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Justin P
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Posted: 24 November 2005 at 1:50pm | IP Logged Quote Justin P

Jake pays for everything all the time because he feels inferior to the other characters he interacts with.  Paying makes Jake feel slightly superior, thus compensating for his inferiority complex.  This comes from many sources, which can all be traced to his castration.  He has an extreme love for Brett, but cannot be with her.  By itself, this isolates him because he cannot follow-up and fully express his love and passion for her.  He must continuously be tempted with the desire, but cannot go through with it due to physical limitations.  Besides this, Jake’s friends and many other people he meets are all having sexual relations with Brett.  He seems to be the only one that wants to, but isn’t and can’t, although he is so close to her.  This last fact isolates him even more from everyone else and is one of the main sources of his inferiority feeling.   

Although the characters spend a lot of time together, they are unable to break into each others' emotional worlds.  All the characters have something that they are hiding behind a mask (as ryan eloquently said).  Their dialogue masks their feelings, as well as there drinking and continuous action.  Since they are simply "doing" stuff, they are not allowing for anyone to see into their emotions.  Thus, even though the character spend much time together, none of them can really see each other for what they are, how they are hurt, and what they are hiding.  Most of these "injuries" that are hidden are actually emotinonal scars from the war.  Jake hides his inferiority from his castration; cohn hides is isolation from having not been in a war; Cohn hides his exclusion from the rest of the rest of the group and the falseness of his relationship with Brett; and Brett hides her inablity to actually "love."  They simply just do stuff together, like drinking, in order to feel a fake form of closenss and to attempt to dispell any loneliness.  They are trying to fill the emptiness that was created from their "injuries" by staying friends.  So, I agree with Alex in that they are desperate for companionship. 

Jake is unable to forget Brett and move on, so his persuit for her love will not end; he cannot not just accept his injury.  But, Brett will never love Jake back because of the physical limitations and because she is unable to truely love anyone for more than superficial reasons.  Thus, this struggle that was present, espcially in the beginning of the novel, will simply continue and they will be "friends."

 Although Jake's injury is most obviously physical, it has much greater effects on the emotional level.  It is the emotional represntation of what war will do to someone.  This is a scar that will not go away and will interfere with all aspects of a person's life.  This scar in the novel basically shows the side of war that most people don't think about, how it can makes people's lives purposeless and harm their emotions.

-justin    



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MaggieB
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Posted: 25 November 2005 at 1:47pm | IP Logged Quote MaggieB

It seems in Jake's character to always pay the bill. Due to his injury during the war Jake never knows what is going to happen in his future. Because of this Jake wants to stay free from ties with people. He thinks he can do this by never staying in debt to someone. He doesn't want to stay tied down with people either. An example of Jake not wanting to stay tied down is that fact that though he claims to love Brett he lets her leave him all of the time. 

 

The characters don't know each other well. To know someone you must trust someone and Jake us tells us in the beginning that he doesn't trust people (pg 12).  They are there for each other, but all they do is drink together. I agree with Alex's idea that their need for companionship keeps them together.

 

I agree with the Ryan, Justin and Alex in the fact that nothing will ever come of the Jake, Brett relationship. Brett will never love Jake. They will stay friends for their lives, probably not even that long, Due to Brett's fickle tendencies.  

 

Jake's injuries are a symbol of the war. It shows what can do to people. It changes their lives. I like the way that Ryan puts it.  



Edited by MaggieB on 25 November 2005 at 1:49pm
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DanielF
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Posted: 25 November 2005 at 3:27pm | IP Logged Quote DanielF

Jake is a man with many internal issues.  I agree with Justin in saying that he has an inferiority complex.  Because of this complex, he is not comfortable around people and it affects him treamendously.  This complex is a direct result of his war wound.  To help himself overcome this complex, he feels the need to pay for things.  I believe that his complexity also has to do with Jake losing much of his manhood.  To regain some of his manhood back he pays for various things.  This has to do with the view that in a household, the man is the one that "brings home the bacon."  Jake feels more like a man when he pays for things and this helps him deal with his complex.

I agree with Justin, Maggie, Alex, and Ryan in saying that the characters do not know each other well.  Maggie is right in saying that to know someone you have to have a degree of trust and these characters do not have trust.  Most of the time they are drunk so how can they trust each other in these conditions?  Alex is also right in saying that they need each other for companionship.  Even though they are together most of the time, they seem isolated from each other.

Brett and Jake will be continue being close friends as Ryan said.  Jake loves Brett too much to just move on and forget her.  Brett also does not know what love is and will continue to come to Jake to try and find it.  Brett will never love Jake though because Jake cannot fulfill her needs.

The injury is both a result and a symbol of the war.  It is a result for obvious reasons as in he is physically castrated.  It also affects Jake's mentality and gives him his inferiority complex as a stated above.  It is a symbol because it gives the reader a look into what war does to a person.  It shows how much it can change the life of a person.

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SamanthaF
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Posted: 25 November 2005 at 5:15pm | IP Logged Quote SamanthaF

I agree with everyone who has already posted on the fact that Brett and Jake would remain together if the novel were to continue.  Jake will forever be in love with Brett although he would not follow her around like a lost puppy as Cohn does.  He understands that she will never love him the way she does other men, because she never truly loves anyone else except for superficial reasons.  Brett says that she’s “…mad about the Romero Boy.  I’m in love with him I think… I’m a goner.  It’s tearing me all up inside” (Hemingway 187).  What Brett claims is love is never really that, but just a lust for men that Jake cannot fulfill.  They will remain together however because Jake is Brett’s support system who she falls back on whenever she has made a mistake.  She runs to him to help her meet Romero and back to him again after she realizes she cannot be with him.  Jake is there to comfort her make her feel loved even though she refuses to let him get too close to her because she knows she can never truly be with him.

             Jake’s insistence on always paying the tab may also relate back to Brett.  Jake knows he is not the “man” Brett needs him to be and he compensates for this by showing that he can take care of her financially.  Brett is in love with Mike, a drunken bankrupt, and Jake is showing that if Brett were to be with him he would be able to support her. Jake could also be too prideful to take anyone else’s charity.  Perhaps he feels that others who know of his condition pity him and buy him drinks because they feel sorry for him.  Therefore, he would refuse their money, as he does not want to be treated as less of a man. 

             I also agree that the characters in this novel do not know each other well.  However, no one else outside of the group really knows anything about its members as they know about each other.  Each person has a wall built around them that does not let other people get too close.  The cause of Jake’s is his war wound, which I agree is a symbol of the long lasting effects of the war.  Like many others, Jake will never be the same person he was when he left for the war, but unlike others, his scars are visible.

 

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Lori Z
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Posted: 26 November 2005 at 12:13pm | IP Logged Quote Lori Z

I agree with Dan and the previous posts because I also feel that Jake and Brett will continue to be friends.  Jake will always love Brett, which is evident throughout the novel:  he accomodates her whenever possible, he will drop whatever he is doing to meet her, and he introduces her to men, like Pedro Romero, even though he loves her.  If Jake and Brett's relationship does continue, I think it will be Jake's insistence, not Brett's, because he truly loves Brett and would do anything for her, whereas Brett is unreliable and flighty. While she may love Jake, she will never commit to him because of his injury and her inability to see past that handicap.  Jake will continue his relationship with Brett, even though he is aware Brett will never love him he the way he loves her.  I also think that Jake is more likely to remain friends with Brett than with any of his male friends.  Jake liked Bill, Cohn, and Mike, but his ties were much stronger with Brett.   The men were all enamored with Brett and would have forgotten each other just to be with her.  To Jake, Brett is much more important than any of his male buddies.  But sadly, Jake will never mean more to Brett than just a friend.
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Patrice C
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Posted: 26 November 2005 at 9:28pm | IP Logged Quote Patrice C

I agree with everyone who has previously posted about Brett and Jake staying close if the novel were to continue. Because of Jake’s injury I do not think that they would ever be more than friends, and also Brett is not one for falling in love with any man. What Brett feels for men isn’t love, I don’t think she has ever felt ‘love’ for a man just lust, and because of Jakes castration he can never give Brett what she desires and thinks is love. When Brett was talking about her feelings toward Romero she said that she thinks she’s in love with him (Hemingway 187), she does not know what love truly is, and that is what Jake wants. They would remain friends, because Jake will never be able to get over her, because he feels so strongly about her, but they could never be anything more.

I believe Jake always insists on paying for everything, because he feels that he is subordinate to everyone. His injury makes him think less of himself so by paying he is trying to make himself feel equal. Like others have said, his physical limitation causes him to not be able to physically be with Brett which also causes him to feel below his other friends, especially those who have been involved with Brett romantically.
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JarretP
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Posted: 27 November 2005 at 12:24pm | IP Logged Quote JarretP

 

     I believe Jake is always paying for himself because he feels inferior to other characters. Jake, by narrating the story, removes himself from the activity of his friends. From this distance he can see clearly the actions of others but he rarely ever comments on himself. This seclusion that Jake feels is fostered by his unsuccessful career, his ummm... war wound, and his love for Lady Ashley. 

   The most important reason for his distance from other characters is his love for Lady Ashley. She is in love with extravagant wealth, something that Jake's career will never give him. Jake is jealous of the Count because he is rich and is the current lover of Lady Ashley. Another important fact which is evident through Jake's relationship with Lady Ashley, is his lack of a title. The Count and Lady Ashley both have titles and hence stand above Jake in the social scene. Jake's inferiority complex causes him to pay for himself and others every opportunity he gets.

     The characters although friendly to each other are never described as being friends. I think that they are more drinking budies then actual friends.  I have come to thsi conclusion from their frequent fights.  In the story, Mike says that they are just a group of people who like to have fun and party.  I believe this is the only bond that holds them all together.

     I think that if the novel were to continue, it would continue in very much the same way.  Lady Ashley is unable to love Jake, Jake is unable to let go of his love for Lady Ashley.  This paradox will continue indefinitely 
     I believe that Jake's injury is a symbol of the war, not a result of the war.  During that time, the role of men was significantly dereasing as woman took their jobs when they went to fight in the war.  The new role of women undermined men's roles.  This is seen by Jake's injury.  His injury makes him desire Ashley and by this, Ashley gains power over Jake.
     



Edited by JarretP on 27 November 2005 at 11:00pm


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