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The Sun Also Rises (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 Ernest Hemingway Message Boards : The Sun Also Rises
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Brian L.
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:28pm | IP Logged Quote Brian L.

        I really believe that it is important to understand this novel, because without a complete understanding of what this novel is about, you cannot receive the moral that Hemingway is trying to convey to the reader. Like most of the other people who commented on this question, I think that Hemingway is very confusing as a writer; however, unlike most people, I really like this book. Hemingway leaves so much to be imagined; I think that Hemingway wrote non-descriptive on purpose, because he wanted you to fully understand Jake. I feel as though he wanted the reader to take a leap into Jake’s world so that they could understand what Jake was feeling. Now that I think about it, Hemingway’s writing style is so creative, he gives you a story, and leaves out details so that you can fill in the gaps and understand the novel better. As an iconoclast, Hemingway is very influential. He portrays Jake getting drunk, which definitely went against traditional actions of that time.

        A lot of people said that The Sun Also Rises was not descriptive, but as I said earlier, it is because Hemingway intended it to be this way. Many people say that all they get out of this book is that there is drinking, but if you had lived through a war, and witnessed people die in front of your eyes, I am sure that you would want to escape the horrors of reality every once in a while. I agree with a lot of the stuff that Ariyan and Paulina posted. Paulina said, “Even more I think that Jake isn’t just lost, but is looking for something. He’s trying to find the way to go back to the person he was before the war. I think he, and all the other characters, are trying to go back to their mindset before the war, but since they cannot seem to find happiness, they drown themselves in liquor.” I definitely agree with her, Jake is searching for a way to get back the life that he had before the war.

        The poem written by Brain Turner is extremely mind-blowing; Turner uses incredible description in his poems, and his use of apostrophe towards the bullet in “Here, Bullet,” is incredible. I could actually imagine myself in Turner’s poems as I read them. I think that Turner writes “Here, Bullet” as if he had a loaded gun staring him in the face, and he was wounded on a battlefield. He writes “And I dare you to finish what you’ve started.” It seems to me that he was begging the trigger of the gun to be pulled, so that the bullet would end in all; end the pain that war can inflict on someone. Imagine this: you are in a war, and hit with a bullet through the chest. What do you do? Sit through the pain and agony, or ask for it all to be ended. This can all be related to Jack in a sense. Jack has witnessed the pain that war can bring, and he is forced to live everyday wobbling in horrific memories of battle. I think that by the end of this novel, he will find something that will help him cope with his pain. It seems like I am just rambling now, so I am going to stop.


My only sources were the book, and the given website!

http://www.alicejamesbooks.org/turner_poem.html

Edited by Brian L. on 17 November 2005 at 10:38pm
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kristined
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:48pm | IP Logged Quote kristined

Sorry if I repeat something previously stated. There are just too many posts!

Well first, I have to say that Brain Turner's "Here, Bullet" was amazing. I felt that the use of such cacophonous words intensified the situation. It was like being in that moment and experiencing what the narrator was going through. And the way Turner ended the poem gave a sense of formidable closure. With every shot, there is suffering.

I feel that, unlike Hemingway, Turner is able to create an atmosphere that makes the reader feel important, but not in the sense that the poem is about you. Turner takes you to the scene and somewhat forces you to inhale all types of emotions at once. It seems like Hemingway doesn't expect or want the reader to sympathize with any of the characters. In TSAR, the narrator is Jake. Jake is the one with the mind to say what he wants. There is no need for him to describe himself, and no need to describe others. He knows what they're like. He sort of just tells it like it is, and just for the sake of telling it.

So to answer some of the questions posed, I believe it is obviously very important to understand literature, especially in order to appreciate or criticize it. To not be able to understand a piece of work can defeat the purpose of reading it. I mean you obviously don't have to like everything you read, so that's not the important part. But to know a reading makes it much more comprehensible.

Hemingway's iconoclastic style is obviously different from those before his time and others that I've read, but that doesn't mean I have to like him, though I think he has some good points. The way Hemingway's characters act appeals to me. Their conversations are something of interest and relevance. But the decriptions of places and events are a little bland. They don't seem to be of any importance, but if that's the way the narrator choses to tell his story, then so be it.

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RobertC
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 11:24pm | IP Logged Quote RobertC

      In his two poems entitled “Here, Bullet” and “AB Negative (The Surgeon’s Poem),” Brian Turner is describing the treacherous effects of war on modern-day soldiers. Therefore, he is in a way describing the contemporary lost generation. Hemingway’s novel The Sun Also Rises is about the lost generation of World War I as many of the previous posters have alluded to. However, unlike Hemingway, Turner is concerned with the physical “losses” of war. Turner describes “aorta’s opened valves,” “bone and gristle and flesh,” and “her [Thalia’s] vitals slipping some.” These are all very graphic descriptions of war’s affect on the physical body—not the mind. On the other hand, Hemingway describes the majority of his characters as having emotional and mental limitations due to war. They have no direction in life—turning to alcohol to avoid their problems. Thus, Hemingway describes a whole different realm of resultant problems for the lost generation.

      Interestingly, the other infamous lost generation author, F. Scott Fitzgerald, is like a cross between Brian Turner and Hemingway. One of Fitzgerald's books of the time is entitled Tender is the Night. Published in 1933, the novel narrates the story of Dick Divers who becomes a successful psychiatrist in Europe and marries a wealthy American patient. He moves to upstate New York where he then sinks himself into disillusionment characteristic of the lost generation. In doing so, he brings Nicole, his wife, "down" with him too. Here we see a similarity to Hemingway's descriptions of his lost generation's mental state.

      However, Fitzgerald not only talks about the mental predicament associated with the lost generation, but also the physical realities of it as well. In fact, in chapter thirteen of Tender is the Night, he writes, “See that little stream—we could walk to it in two minutes. It took the British a month to walk to it—a whole empire walking very slowly, dying in front and pushing forward behind. And another empire walked very slowly backward a few inches a day, leaving the dead like a million bloody rugs. No Europeans will ever do that again in this generation.” With the use of explicit imagery ("dying in front and pushing forward behind...like a million bloody rugs"). Whose writing does this seem similar to? It is no other than Brian Turner whose writing is concerned with the lost generation's corporeal handicaps and not the mental limitations.

      Therefore, F. Scott Fitzgerald is an influential author who seems to have the thoughts of Ernest Hemingway and Brian Turner blended together. The result of this blend is the creation of a lost generation incapacitated both physically and mentally.

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/f/fitzgerald/f_scott/te nder/chapter13.html

http://www.people.vcu.edu/~bmangum/fitznovels.html



Edited by RobertC on 17 November 2005 at 11:35pm
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brittanyd
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Posted: 18 November 2005 at 10:13am | IP Logged Quote brittanyd

DonasiaT wrote:

I’m not sure that it’s important to enjoy this novel but it is definitely crucial that we understand it. The purpose of a novel is for the reader to take something away from it, whether it’s what the author thought or a person’s own interpretation.

Brian Turner’s style of writing is not similar to Hemmingway because Turner tends to be much more descriptive, making his readers sympathize with and understand the characters. Instead of choosing to write in this way, Hemmingway decided to write without many detailed descriptions and with more actions. In my opinion, Turner’s style gets his point across better because he takes us to a different place while Hemmingway seems almost as if he is writing only an outline of what occurred without of putting any opinions or emotions into his novels.

 

i agree with D.  Most of the time in the novel it is hard to understand what is going on and what the different characters are trying to feel.  You have to make a lot of accusations about that in order to understand most of the book.  You barely know when someone is sad or upset or happy unless they come right out and say it because he uses no descriptions.  Turner is more blut.  He gets out his point and shows the emotions and feelings in a way that it cannot be mistaken for anything else. 

     Hemingway makes you think alot and that can be good sometimes but in this situation you cannot do this all the time or else you will miss the novel's whole point.

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Mrs Weisgerber
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Posted: 18 November 2005 at 10:47am | IP Logged Quote Mrs Weisgerber

alyssao wrote:

The overall mood of the book reminds me of The Catcher in the Rye.  Of course, there are not many similarites found between these two books, but like The Catcher in the Rye, The Sun Also Rises has this overall sad mood.  The characters are always in a mess with each other, and are never really enjoying themselves.  They just get drunk and fight with one another, leaving the other characters upset.  I'm starting to wonder, Mrs. Weisgerber, if we'll get to more happier material...

Interesting connection to Turner as well, vis-a-vis Robbie Burns.  If a body catch a body, comin thro the rye....

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Anthony E
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Posted: 18 November 2005 at 1:20pm | IP Logged Quote Anthony E

As a war poet, Hemingway does seem to have been an iconoclast in his own time.  He displays the prospect of living as a soldier in war are quite different from those of many other WWI poets.  The main difference from the majority that Hemingway represents is in the mood he conveys.  While many poets of that era where writing of the heroism of epic battles, Hemingway was expressing the drudgery and hardship faced by the individual soldiers facing combat.  This same mood is evoked by Turner's poetry.  "Captives"(linked below) and "Here, Bullet" are examples of this type of poetry from each writer.

http://oldpoetry.com/poetry/31697

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Patrice C
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Posted: 18 November 2005 at 10:20pm | IP Logged Quote Patrice C

I definitely agree with Heather, I do not think that is important to like the novel, to understand it. I do think, though, that you need to recognize what he is writing about so you are able to relate them to things that were happening during the time period he wrote it. Even if you don’t necessarily like the book, being able to understand the is an important so you are able to relate to what he is saying. Being able to identify why Hemingway is writing, and what he is writing about is more important than liking what you read.
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AlexisB
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Posted: 18 November 2005 at 11:38pm | IP Logged Quote AlexisB

             Hemingway’s novel The Sun Also Rises can be interpreted in many different ways.  It seems, from having already read many of the previous posts, that most Magnet students think the main focus of Hemingway’s novel is “the lost generation,” and I tend to agree.  Hemingway writes of the daily lives of his characters and how they are either directly or indirectly affected by WWII.  These daily routines and rituals, however, seem to be somewhat pointless.  Their day always consists of making acquaintances at various bars, getting drunk, flirting, and thinking about their various romantic relationships.  Jake and Brett in particular live their lives in constant conflict; they would love to get back together, but Jake’s physical injury prevents them from being sexually active.  The word iconoclast is from the Greek word eikonoklastes, meaning image destroyer.  I don’t believe Hemingway is ruining any sort of images; he’s telling it like it is, so to speak.  He’s displaying the negative effects of the war on people’s social and physical well-being; he’s showing why the WWII generation is often referred to as the lost generation.

             Turner also writes of the negative social, emotional, and physical effects of war.  His style of writing, however, is totally different than Hemingway’s.  While Hemingway’s style is very to the point, non-emotive, and often lacking detail, which makes The Sun Also Rises, in my opinion, very boring and sometimes difficult to follow.  Turner, on the other hand, pours all his deepest thoughts and emotions onto paper in the form of very interesting, well-written poems.  However, the ideas Hemingway is portraying and the ideas Turner is portraying through their works can be related.  Turner speaks of a bullet that is about to penetrate his body.  The bullet he writes of, however, is not only a bullet in a physical sense, but also in an emotional sense.  His spirits have been crushed by the war; the bullet represents war, which will enter his body and scar him forever.  Hemingway’s characters have also been permanently scarred by the war, and so they lead meaningless lives as members of the lost generation.

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DanielF
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Posted: 20 November 2005 at 2:23pm | IP Logged Quote DanielF

I feel that it is unimportant to like this novel.  One can understand it without liking it.  Understanding it is very important though.  It makes all the difference to the reader if he or she knows and understands the situation that the characters are going through.  Having knowledge about the "lost generation" allows the reader to place himself in the characters shoes and see the novel in a different way.

Hemingway, in my opinion, is a writer, not an iconoclast.  Another author of the time, F. Scott Fitzgerald, wrote a novel similar to that of The Sun Also Rises entitled The Great Ghatsby.  As Heather and Sindhu both noted, many of the characters in both of these novels are very similar.  They all have unfortunate love stories involivng scandals and love affairs.  Since both of these major writers of the wrote about this, I do not think that these were not new ideas of the time.

Brian Turner is very different from Hemingway.  As many students have said, Turner has a more descriptive way of telling the story while Hemingway has a more "short and to the point" way of telling it.  Turner is also a lot more gaury then Hemingway.  Both writers in my opinion are very good, but they are both different from each other.

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