auctions |  biography | message boards | faq | links | bibliography | multimedia | exclusives | gifts | home |
Hemingway Travel Stickers
 


got Papa? shirts, mugs and more!
Custom Euro Oval Stickers
Oval Stickers and Euro Stickers


      
  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
The Sun Also Rises (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 Ernest Hemingway Message Boards : The Sun Also Rises
Subject Topic: Is it important.... Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Matt B
New Member
New Member



Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:50am | IP Logged Quote Matt B

Another thing about Hemingway--as far as I'm concerned, his novel fails as a novel. As illuminating as it may be, it doesn't capture my attention nor does it entertain me. Thusly, it doesn't do its job.
Back to Top View Matt B's Profile Search for other posts by Matt B
 
BryanK
New Member
New Member


Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:52am | IP Logged Quote BryanK

I agree with most people that Turner is more explicit in his description of war and its effects; however, I do not feel that this makes his writing style more effective.  Both Hemingway and Turner are able to get their message across that war causes a dramatic effect on people to lose their grip on life.  It is very imporant to look at Hemingway as a revolutionary writer, an iconoclast who defined and mastered a new style of writing.  His writing is very effective in that it is able to reveal the emotions of his characters without the use of abundant adjectives and long, complex sentences.  The reader is able to pick up on these emotions through deep thought of the actions and manner of speech of each of the characters.  Turner's more modern, traditional style is also effective because it reveals the emotions of the characters explicitly through the demise of the surgeon and the nurse after the war hero's death.

---Bryan

Back to Top View BryanK's Profile Search for other posts by BryanK
 
Sonal P
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 11:35am | IP Logged Quote Sonal P

In defense of Hemingway, I understand and have developed a liking to The Sun Also Rises. I do not think it is important for all of us to like the novel because we all have our different opinions, and not all of us may appreciate his style of writing. However, the story is based on the lost generation, which, to some extent, applies to our generation as well (students isolated from the rest of the world by their headphones--Mrs. Weisgerber  ). Though some of us may not approve of this novel, understanding why Hemigway wrote it and the techniques he uses is essential in realizing the affects of war on individuals as well as today's society as a whole.

Besides the fact that all three pieces of literature are connected with war, I can find mostly differences between Turner's two poems and Hemingway's novel. The poems take place during war and are full of description,  imagination, emotion, and thought. The settings, objects, and people  in his poems are detailed to the highest point. On the other hand, Hemingway's novel is post-war and focuses on describing just about everything but the characters themselves. I drew the conclusion that while Hemingway made his narrator, Jake, very objective to the rest of the people in the novel, Turner gave a more personal look into each character. Hemingway's characters seemed very indifferent and dull. Their lives were of seemingly no importance because they did nothing worthwhile in life. In contrast, Turner's characters are shown as brave and committed heroes of war facing death in the face. They had a purpose, and they gave their life to fulfill that purpose. I do realize that if the characters that died in the poems had lived through it, they may have ended up exactly as the characters from the novel. The surgeon in "AB Negative" will most likely end up with a similar fate.

                                                                              ~SoNaL~



Edited by Sonal P on 17 November 2005 at 11:38am
Back to Top View Sonal P's Profile Search for other posts by Sonal P
 
Justin P
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 November 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 11:51am | IP Logged Quote Justin P

Many of you say that it is important to understand this novel.  But is that simply because of the visual images created?  It is much more; it is because of the psychological effects created in a post war era with the people most affected.  Brett and Jake were both in the war and so have lived more than they ever will; they have experienced more than most people, so they feel no need to add a purpose to their lives.  They go on in life that is blinded by their past experiences and so prevents them from going forward and doing more than just drinking and enjoying pleasures (essentially that is wasting the purpose that could come out of these lives).  Cohn on the other hand, was not in the war.  Being an already insecure individual, he is set apart from his other friends, being the only one in his "group" that has not gone to war and experienced so much horror, yet so much life altogether.  His past life experiences are almost insignificant to Brett's and Jake's, but his present life is also much different than that of Brett's and Jake's wastefull, listlessness, and purposeless lives.  This is a completely new view on life and effects of war.  That is why this is important, which is also why he is an iconoclast.   

Previously, people had thought that coming home from war meant problems and coming back to a completely different lifestly that is almost "boring", which is not true in Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises.  As for Hemingway as a writer, he introduces a completely new plot that is only apparent through dialogue.  This means that no one says what the plot is, it must be interpretted through the verbal interactions of the deeply pschologicly defined characters.  It is often seen for writers to shape a character's psycological structure, such as in the Catcher in the Rye, but it is very difficult to do this through the simple word choices and verbal reponses of them.  This is why I ABSOLUTELY love Hemingway.  Many of you have an impression of the plot or what the characters are emotionally like, but the reason you feel that is because of the simple verbal suggestions he adds.  This makes it very ditinquished and similar to our everyday lives.  We make impressions about others because of what they say, and this subtle subconcousious process is even enhanced in Hemingway's novel.

Thus, this makes Hemingway a modenist poet, just like Eliot.  He uses subtle actions, situations, and small talk to evoke extrodinary emotions in the reader.

This whole modernist movement shattered society's beliefs.

Think of Hemingway's novel as a surrealist art work, the dialogue is the paint strikes, so only reason can bring about the full meaning.

Brian Turner is very similar, in that he creates extreme emotions in the reader.  He does it in Here, Bullet through comparing the bullet and what kills someone, to a a living organism.  This is ironic and touches us very deeply by saying that parts of us "kill."  In AB Negative, emotions are created through the extreme detial of death and even showing the "beautiful" parts of the dying individual in juxtapose with the sadening impact it has with outsiders that love the one dying.  This method is less subtle than Hemingway's and does not require addional thought to discover what people are actually thinking.  They are both very brielf, but Turner's are straight to the point, following the post-modenism style, and evoke already sensitive areas; while Hemingway is more sutlbe by presenting situations we encounter on a daily basis (which war is obviously not) that we thus have our own reponses to.  This forces your abilites of reason to create the emotions, actions, pictures, and plot.

Therefor, I like Turner as well, becuase of the very deep, vivid, and unusual images he creates

 



Edited by Justin P on 17 November 2005 at 11:54am


__________________
-Justin P
Back to Top View Justin P's Profile Search for other posts by Justin P
 
Damien A.
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:11pm | IP Logged Quote Damien A.

I agree with Sagar about Turner being more interesting. He uses more vivid descriptions and details while Hemingway leaves you to your own imagination to picture what happens. How many poets do you know that talk about shrapnel cauterizing as it travels through a body? When Turner describes things like that you immediately get a mental picture of what happens. It is not a very pretty picture, but it is a picture none the less.

Edited by Damien A. on 17 November 2005 at 1:13pm


__________________
Damien
Back to Top View Damien A.'s Profile Search for other posts by Damien A.
 
fredp
New Member
New Member


Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:19pm | IP Logged Quote fredp

It is important to understand a novel; know what its theme is, where it comes from, the place in time it fills. By understanding where the novel comes from, the point of the writing becomes clearer.

Hemingway's apostraphe to the bullet would be something very barebones- it would amount to why he would shoot himself in straight terms. Because if there was any reason for Hemingway to ineract with a bullet, it would be in order to take his own life. It would be a story of why he wanted to end it all, right before he pulled the trigger.

Samantha S. wrote:
Christina made a great point; Hemingway's descriptions can almost be described as lacking in comparison to Turner's. He lets you imagine the characters' appearances on your own. Originally, I thought of his lack of descriptions as a purposeful thing, to be honest.

Well, when writing in the first person an author has to take on the voice of the character- and a character would not bother to note how someone looks when they've seen that person a million times and already knows it. By spending time in what amounts to a view of someone's thoughts to describe something interrupts the flow.

Lisa C wrote:
Although many people may choose to disagree, Hemingway's work is highly unrealistic and hard for people to relate to because it revolves around a "party all day and all night" kind of attitude.  The whole time his characters are getting drunk and dancing.  I don't know about you guys but i don't know many people who live like that. 

You don't need to relate to the party-all-day attitue to emphasize with the characters. Jake is in love with Brett, but the two can never be together. They can only get so close- you don't need to be an alcoholic to understand that.



Edited by fredp on 17 November 2005 at 1:20pm
Back to Top View fredp's Profile Search for other posts by fredp
 
NoraA
New Member
New Member


Joined: 14 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:21pm | IP Logged Quote NoraA

To respond to Justin's most recent post, I think the main reason why it is important to understand the novel is for the in class essay that is in a week or so.

Besides that, I don't appreciate Hemingway's style yet. It might be something that grows on me later on in life, but right now, I'm not a fan of the choppy, dry sentences. It lacks the flavor that makes most novels fun to read. Then again, last year, I wished that authors like J. Fenimore Cooper could just cut to the chase. Sometimes you just can't win.

I also agree with what Justin says to a certain extent, about how characters like Jake and Brett have already lived more than they ever will. I understand that they have seen the harsh and violent aspects of life, but what of things like love and parenthood? Aren't those reasons to live a life beyond drinking and partying? Wouldn't establishing a family mean moving forward, living more than they did before?

 

Back to Top View NoraA's Profile Search for other posts by NoraA
 
Candace E
New Member
New Member


Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:22pm | IP Logged Quote Candace E

After reading about half of the novel, The Sun Also Rises by Hemingway, I have become a bit frusterated as I strive to put myself in his shoes for even a moment.  His writing is very choppy and it seems almost unfocused at times.  This is something that I myself am simply not accustomed to and therefore have not accepted yet.  After reading the poems by Brian Turner, I agree with many of the other students that have recently posted.  I like him better! I believe the reasons for this are that I can fully feel myself being in his position at any point in the poem.  For example when he is telling the story of Thalia Fields in his poem, "AB Negative (The Surgeon’s Poem)", he writes, "and when she closes her eyes, the most beautiful colors rise in darkness...with her thick brushes dipping in green" I could not help but shudder as I felt like I was slowly closing my eyes to die as well. Because of Turner's great descriptions, I was able to imagine those vivid colors in the darkness of closed eyes and the terror of losing all of my senses slowly but surely.  I am really impressed by Turner's poems, yet I hope that by continuing to read Hemingway's novel, I will eventually grow to enjoy his unique style as well.

 

Back to Top View Candace E's Profile Search for other posts by Candace E
 
michaelb
New Member
New Member


Joined: 15 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:22pm | IP Logged Quote michaelb

When I first started reading Hemingway’s novel, The Sun Also Rises, I did not like the style or descriptions: the style was choppy and the descriptions barely existed. However, when I finished reading the novel yesterday, I found that it was quite enjoyable: Hemingway does a remarkable job paralleling human nature with the nature of animals (bulls in a fight). Although the characters do the same things over and over and over again, hidden behind all of the drinking and partying is a great point.  It is quite evident that Hemingway parallels the ups and downs of human relationships to the ups and downs of bull fighting. Generally, I started to appreciate Hemingway’s style of back-and-fourth dialogue, and I truly admired the growing tension (in Book 2) which led to a great ending (sorry, I don’t want to give it away yet).

Back to Top View michaelb's Profile Search for other posts by michaelb
 
CarolM
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:23pm | IP Logged Quote CarolM

I agree with Pauline that these two authors cannot be comapred to each other. The Sun Also Rises is a love story, or is supposed to be (I cannot really tell).  His story is about drinking, partying, and hanging out with friends.  The only mention it has of war is that all of the main characters, except Robert Cohn, are war veterans.

In Turners "Bullet" he talks about the final moment in a soliders life where the bullet is traveling through his body.  His poem is about war, and is meant to evoke pity, pain and empathy.  He is not trying to describe to us the love affair of people or objects.  He is totally different from Hemingway in his topic but he also uses more descriptive adjectives and not adverbs.

In my opinion, The Sun Also Rises does not have much depth.  They are a bunch of confused individuals, who missed out on growing up because of war.  I found this quote from Gertrude Stein <"Every man becomes civilized between the ages of 18 and 25.  If he does not go through a civilizing experience at that time of his life,  he will not become a civilized man.  The men who went to war at 18, missed the civillizing... All you young people who served in the war are a lost generation.  You have no respect for anything.  You drink youselves to death."> and I think she describes Hemingway's characters' way of life perfectly.  There is nothing more to understand about them.

Back to Top View CarolM's Profile Search for other posts by CarolM
 

<< Prev Page of 8 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version 7.92
Copyright ©2001-2004 Web Wiz Guide





biography | message boards | faq | links | bibliography | multimedia | exclusives | gifts | home

All pages copyright 1996-2017 The Hemingway Resource Center & www.lostgeneration.com
A MouseClickMedia.com, LLC Website
 

Custom Euro Oval Stickers
Oval Stickers and Euro Stickers