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The Sun Also Rises (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 Ernest Hemingway Message Boards : The Sun Also Rises
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ariyanb
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 1:15am | IP Logged Quote ariyanb

ooooo.....outposted

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Lori Z
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 8:27am | IP Logged Quote Lori Z

While I agree that Turner's and Hemingway's writing styles are extremely different, I feel that they are both reacting to, and thus, writing about the world that surrounds and affects them.  Like others have said before me, Turner's poems evoke more emotion becuase of his vivid and gory descriptions.  In TSAR, Hemingway uses a choppy and direct writing style that is more explanatory than emotional.
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dplatt
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 9:16am | IP Logged Quote dplatt

Both Turner and Hemingway use a twisted, wry sense of humor in their work.

In “Here, Bullet.”  Turner gruesomely depicts the slow demise of a fallen comrade using graphic medical details.  Ironically, the bullet of death ultimately comes from “the barrel’s cold esophagus.”  What function does the esophagus serve?  The esophagus gives life, gulping down food into the stomach to provide energy and to sustain life.  Turner began his poem with the seemingly vague line, “If a body is what you want.”  The dying soldier’s life is the body, the life, the gun wanted, and it took the soldier’s life without mercy.

Hemingway also presents a twisted view on life.  Throughout The Sun Also Rises, Hemingway talks of Jacob Barnes’s simmering long-term affair with the coy yet gorgeous Lady Brett Ashley and a short tryst with a French whore named Georgette.  Barnes reminisces with Lady Ashley of their love in the past, and the paramours share an intimate moment in the back of a taxi, but something always seems to prevent Barnes from consummating his love.  Finally, it dawns on the reader: Barnes’s “horrible injury” from the war—It is a castration, and it bars Barnes for the entirety of his life of ever sharing the physical act of love with another.

 

Therefore, both Turner and Hemingway both detail the agonies of life, with an ironic twist of human anatomy to be discovered by the reader.



Edited by dplatt on 18 November 2005 at 12:38pm
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Jake T
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:36am | IP Logged Quote Jake T

Hemingway shows his disgust of the war in the way that Jake was injured by it.  In his biography, it is clearly said that he has dealt with intense combat first hand.  Being only an ambulance driver, he didn't expect to see any action, yet he ended up being severely injured and being awarded with a medal.  While is nearly not as graphic, or even the same as Turner, they both get their point across with detailed description.

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DonasiaT
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:42am | IP Logged Quote DonasiaT

I’m not sure that it’s important to enjoy this novel but it is definitely crucial that we understand it. The purpose of a novel is for the reader to take something away from it, whether it’s what the author thought or a person’s own interpretation.

Brian Turner’s style of writing is not similar to Hemmingway because Turner tends to be much more descriptive, making his readers sympathize with and understand the characters. Instead of choosing to write in this way, Hemmingway decided to write without many detailed descriptions and with more actions. In my opinion, Turner’s style gets his point across better because he takes us to a different place while Hemmingway seems almost as if he is writing only an outline of what occurred without of putting any opinions or emotions into his novels.

 

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JosephD
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:44am | IP Logged Quote JosephD

Many people have said they enjoy reading Tuner's poems more than Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises, but I would disagree.  Turner's writing is all at that point in time.  It is just about the actions going on rather than the consequences.  It is too much of telling a story, rather than the ideas and beliefs behind it.  Hemingway on the other hand goes into the effects of war and how it has an impact on a person's life.  After returning from WWI Hemingway was emotionally damaged and wasn't able to go right back to his normal life, even that is what his parents try to make him do.  He just wanted time to get his life back together and not worry about the mental effects of being in the war.  In The Sun Also Rises, Hemingway depicts what war is like by describing how it has impacted Jake's life.  He is more concerned about the mental damages and how physical damages could ruin what a person truely loves to do.  He isn't just worry about the battle scars, like Brian Turner.

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Matt B
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:45am | IP Logged Quote Matt B

Personally, I don't like The Sun Also Rises, but I think it is an important book to read, regardless of one's personal opinion. From my experience with his writings, I don't believe Hemingway is a great writer. However, I do support his purpose as an iconoclast; I can appreciate when someone goes against the norm and creates something new and fresh. There is no doubt that Hemingway is original and creates a great contrast between him and say, Cooper, who couldn't go on without describing a tree for 2-3 pages. I don't really like either author; I believe there should be a balance between terseness and a certain level of description. In order for a person to be absorbed into the story of a novel, the author has to create some sort of picture for them. Hemingway leaves everything to the imagination, and with a story as boring as The Sun Also Rises, my imagination isn't up for the task.

Anyway, on to Brian Turner's poems. I found both poems fantastic, though I do prefer "AB Negative (The Surgeon’s Poem)" over "Here, Bullet." Turner is an incredible writer who exactly suits my tastes. He isn't overly descriptive, but he gives enough description to make things interesting. The topic is also a lot more interesting to me; frankly, I don't really care about a few rich people's dealings in Paris. I'd much rather read about a modern war, particularly when it is described as beatifully as Turner does. He effortlessly paints a mental picture of the horrors of war using endlessly creative metaphors, similes, and other literary techniques. Incredible. 

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melissap
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:49am | IP Logged Quote melissap

I don't believe that it is necessary to like the novel; however, you should understand it in order to know what is happening.  If you don't understand the novel, you wouldn't know what Hemingway is trying to convey.  You have to first understand the novel to be able to figure out the lives of the characters and the plot of the story.  It is also highly unlikely that you would like the book if you don't understand it, and although I do understand the novel, I still don't like it that much. Hemingway is also an iconoclast because his writing is not the typical style and doesn't focus on typical themes of his time period.  Hemingway writes in short sentences and paragraphs, which not many authors do, and he also writes of drinking, partying, and people's relationships with each other.

Brian Turner has a couple similarities to Hemingway because both use descriptive words in their writings to describe scenes and occurances. They also both have a cynicism about their writing and also focus on sadness and the bad in situations.

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kevinf
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:49am | IP Logged Quote kevinf

dplatt wrote:
In “Here, Bullet.”  Turner gruesomely depicts the slow demise of a fallen comrade using graphic medical details.  Ironically, the bullet of death ultimately comes from “the barrel’s cold esophagus.”  What function does the esophagus serve?  The esophagus gives life, gulping down food into the stomach to provide energy and to sustain life.

Hmm, I never really thought about the use of the esophagus as an ironic  symbol for where the bullet comes from, but now I see it clearly. It certainly is an excellent yet subtle use of irony.

Brian Turner certainly opposes Hemingway in almost every way. Hemingway strives to eliminate all descriptives adjectives and only gives us the bare minimum description, whereas Turner strives to include as much description as he can, going into as much depth as possible. This certainly parallels the so-called "digital age" we are in now, where new technologies are focused on what is new, what looks good, and what can provide the best image. In Hemingway's war-ravaged time period, people needed someone they could relate to; also, people were absolutely obsessed with the war in Europe, meaning they had less time to read lengthy novels including loads of description. They wanted quick and fast action, and they certainly got that from Hemingway.

I think it's more important to understand Hemingway than to like him. Of course being in the post-modernism period would give most people in this day and age a bias towards Turner's style of writing, but that doesn't mean that Hemingway's writings should be trashed. In order to properly understand the novel, you need to put the novel in the appropriate context of that period of time; during the first world war in Europe. Then you can understand why people weren't obsessed with images; for most of the images they saw were most likely brutal images of death and dying. Nowadays, people have been exposed to so much death and dying that another layer of description is required to make the death/dying more "real", and less fictional or imaginative.

I think Hemingway has a very interesting writing style that is very curt and choppy. I would prefer longer sentences to the short abrupt style of Hemingway, as well as a more developed plot than going to a wild fiesta in Spain and getting drunk while hanging out with a group of friends.

As an iconoclast, Hemingway seems to destroy every convention known to the literary world at that time. Most of the previous authors we read from the realist period loved to use loads of descriptive words and phrases so you could picture the exact scene they had in their brain. Hemingway didn't like this, favoring action over description, perhaps viewing description as getting in the way of the plot or action of the novel, or perhaps he felt it was often boring and people were more likely to skim that section of the novel for whatever reason. For me personally, the realist style of writing really brings the point of the story home for me, that I can imagine a person trudging through the snow in incredibly cold weather, or imagine a "hero" going to get a bucket of water. Realism is more in tune with the post-modern world, whereas Hemingway is often to the other extreme.



Edited by kevinf on 17 November 2005 at 10:12pm


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JosephD
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Posted: 17 November 2005 at 10:49am | IP Logged Quote JosephD

Now i will touch on the understanding of a novel rather than comparing Tunrer and Hemingway as i did in my previous post.  I tend to believe enjoying a novel is somewhat important into the understanding of it.  Anybody can read a novel and know what is happenning.  He can understand the basis of the novel and what the author is trying to express, but the person who enjoys the novel will likely understand more.  If a person enjoys reading a specific novel, it is likely he knows the biography and about what the author went through during his life.  This is the basis for understanding the viewpoint of an author and what he is trying to present to his readers.  Also, the person who enjoys reading the authors won't mind taking a deep look into specific parts of the book.  This person will really like looking deep into the author to understand every character and scene of the novel.

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